Zimbabwe is not a basket case, says Mugabe

CNN’s Christiane Amanpour had an exclusive, in-depth interview with Zimbabwe’s President Robert Mugabe — his first in five years. Excerpts:

Q: What are you going to ask?  Are you going to ask President Obama to lift the sanctions that are imposed?

A: Not really.  I haven’t come here for President Obama to address the United States alone.  I’ve come here to address the General Assembly, which is part of the United Nations’ structures.  And we are entitled to discuss matters that affect us in the global environment and the matters that affect us in a particular way as Zimbabwe.  And this is what I’m going to do.

 
But you obviously are calling for sanctions to be lifted.

Yes, that I will do, certainly.  The sanctions are unjustified, illegal, and they are meant for regime change, to address that illegal principle.

You say for regime change, but it all really is about trying to get the political situation stabilized.  And for the last year, you’ve been in so-called power-sharing agreement with the leader of the opposition, Morgan Tsvangirai.  What does power-sharing to you mean?  Many people say that it’s in name only right now.

No. It is really power-sharing.  And that power-sharing is encapsulated in an agreement we call the global political agreement. 

 
The problem, though, is, Mr President, that many people are saying that you’re still, and your party, is trying to sort of reduce the MDC majority or their officials in parliament. There are MPs who are being arrested. They’re being charged with alleged crimes to prevent them from being able to take office.  Why is this still happening?

First, may I make this quite clear, that the global political agreement was arrived at after a series of meetings which involved not just ZANU-PF, as represented by myself and our negotiators, and numbered also between ZANU-PF and the MDC, as represented by Tsvangirai and Professor Chambara and their negotiators.

And these provisions in the global agreement were reached after very strenuous discussions had taken place.

 
Right.  But the question really is...

And so they were not -- they were not forced upon us.  We -- we came to...

 
No, but the question really is...

We came to them deliberately.

 
All right.  So why then...

We arrived at them deliberately.

 
All right.  So if you say you arrived at them deliberately, why then are their MPs and officials still being harassed?

Because the issue of those who have been arrested is a different matter altogether.  Some of them had committed crimes before the global agreement, crimes such as rape and kidnapping.  You couldn’t let people who have committed such crimes get away with it merely because there is a global agreement.

 
Has Roy Bennett committed a crime?  Why is he not being sworn in?

Roy Bennett has been charged, and on the face of it the charges are very serious.  But I’m told this by the leader of the MDC — that the prosecution is addressing no evidence.  There are no witnesses.  And I’ve said, if there are no witnesses, the prosecution will arrive at a time when they will say so.

 
So charged with what?

But let’s not read that for them.  Let them read that conclusion on their own.

 
Do you think that he will be appointed?

Yes, yes, yes, if he’s acquitted, he will be appointed.

But charged with what?

Charged with ... with having, you know, tried to put ... I think he was found responsible for ... that’s the allegation.  The allegation is that he’s responsible for organizing arms of war against Zimbabwe...

 
Well, we’ll obviously have to ask him about that, but...

  ... and ... and ... and that this ... these are the charges that are being made on the face of them.
 
Well...

But if the prosecution cannot prove that, in fact, he did so, that, in fact, he’s guilty of, you know, trying to organize, you know...

 
Mr Mugabe, that’s certainly the first I’m hearing of it, and we will, obviously, put that to them.  But can I say this?  There are a lot of people — and you heard in that report — who considered you an African hero back in 1980, that you came and — some of my own friends, Rhodesians, some of the people I’ve worked with who were in the Rhodesian army, then became journalists in Rhodesia were stunned by the conciliatory nature and the addresses that you gave back in 1980...

Yes.

 
... and describe how, for 10 years, your policies led to prosperity, led to successes in mining and agriculture, and all sorts of things, and then, over the last 10 years, things have really gone south in a big and bad way.  Why is it that that’s happened?

Over the ... over the last 10 years...

 
No, no, since land reform.  And remember that the presidents of Mozambique and Tanzania, when you took the country to liberation, said to you that you have the jewel of Africa in your hands, now look after it.

Yes, we are looking...

 
Did you look after it?

Yes, in a very great way.  Over the last 10 years, we have had ZIDERA, the sanctions imposed on us by the United States, plus sanctions imposed upon us by the European Union, over the last 10 years.

 
Right, but they were specifically targeted sanctions...

No.
 

... against individuals, not against the trade or development.

Zimbabwe ... no, no, no, no.  The United States’ sanctions on us are real sanctions, economic sanctions.  Have you looked at that?  Look at them, and you’ll satisfy yourselves that they prevent companies from having any dealings with us.

 
But they’re very, very specifically targeted.

They prevent any any financial institutions from having any relations with us.
 
... for these incredible statistics, where, since you took over, life expectancy has dropped, manufacturing has fallen...

But I’m just telling you -- I’m just telling you...

 
... 1 in 14 people are malnourished...

I’m just telling you the reasons.  It’s because of sanctions mainly.

 
But everybody says it’s not because of sanctions.  It’s because of mismanagement.

Not everybody says so.

Most people do.  Most independent observers say that.

In Zimbabwe ... it’s not true.

 
How to get out of this now?  How to get out of this?  Do you think -- for instance, right now...

The sanctions ... sanctions must be lifted.  And we should have no interference from outside.  The continued imperialistic interference in our affairs is affecting the country, obviously.

 
Nobel Peace Prize winner, Archbishop Desmond Tutu, said you destroyed a wonderful country, a country that used to be a breadbasket and has now become a basket case itself. How do you respond to that?

No, it’s not a basket case at all. Last year, we managed to grow enough food for ourselves.  We are not a basket case anymore.

 
One in fourteen people are malnourished.
No, no, no, no...

 
Your country is practically dependent on humanitarian aid.

... just now ... you’re not talking of the present.
 
I know things have got slightly better in the last year...

They have got much better in terms of food.

 
... but it’s still like a war zone.

 People have grown enough food for themselves.  We have had years, continuous, successive years of drought.  Don’t forget that.  And in addition...
 
I’ve seen the drought figures.  I’ve got all the statistics here.

... sanctions, as wel ... and combine the effects of drought with the effects of sanctions, and what do you get?
 
Well, and the effect of what many people are saying is the land reform that really created this huge discrepancy in your ability to farm.

The land reform is the best thing that could ever have happened.
 
The best thing?
Yes, that could ever have happened to an African country. It has to do with national sovereignty. Zimbabwe belongs to the Zimbabwean people.
 
... and everybody believes that?

Yes.  All people believe it.
 
So do you consider white Zimbabweans to be Zimbabweans?

Those who are naturalized and have citizenship, yes.

 
Those who’ve been living there for years and years and years?

But historically ... they have a debt.

The people who -- contributing to farming -- historically they have a debt to pay?

Yes, yes, their land.  They -- they occupied the land illegally.  They seized the land from our people. Therefore, the process of reform, land reform, involved their handing -- having to hand over the land.  We agreed upon this with the British, by the way.