Kagame: We’re not hunting down defectors

In less than three months, Rwanda will be marking 20 years after the genocide. How is the reconciliation process going?

It’s going very well. Simply put, there is no way our country would have made such significant progress without people’s involvement.

Secondly, they would not have worked together without overcoming the challenges that have been there. At the beginning, we had almost the entire population of the country displaced.

The psychology of it was that they did not know what to hold onto. We had to get involved in trying to pick the pieces. It is this soul searching, people finding ways they can work together that has brought us this far.

Did Gacaca courts produce the results you desired?

The Gacaca courts were designed to achieve twin objectives. One is for the wider population to see that justice is done.

The second is to ensure justice while allowing the country to get back together because one tends to affect the other. The two tend to conflict and Gacaca very well serves the purpose. Thousands have been able to go through the process and go back to their villages.

Did the ICTR produce anything you regard useful for the country?

It’s a very difficult question by the fact that it has very many aspects to it. One, the fact that the UN is associated with a process where some form of justice is carried out is important.

But that is different from the quality of the process, which I think is where the problem really lies. There’s a lot of wastage of resources.

The cases that have been successfully tried are a handful — less than 60and billions have been used. It served those involved in the process rather than those who wanted to see justice done.

Some observers said you were not optimistic about the process

I think there are very good reasons.

There are cases that take so many years. The other is witnesses, where people created an atmosphere of silence and at times using interpreters who have relatives who are being tried. It doesn’t make sense.

Has this informed your position on the ICC?

It’s the totality of it. You cannot have a justice system that acts universally in the interests of some people and are silent on other people’s interests. You find that it is designed to deal with certain cases.

The counter argument is that it’s about the victims. I’m saying that the totality of it ends up presenting a case of injustice rather than justice.

What progress has your government made in tracing Felicine Kabuga who is accused of funding the genocide?

We are not able as a government to be the ones to trace him.

It requires the collaboration of the entire international system and still that has not given us good results. You have heard of the US government putting in money and the ICTR involved in cases of tracking.

We have been talking to different governments in the continent and we are not any closer to putting him where he belongs. It’s still a mystery how he manages to disappear into thin air.

A number of times it has come up that he is in Kenya
Yes, a number of times we have talked to administrations. It’s a very long time since this came up but we never got to know whether he was here or somebody was covering up for him….we never got to know the truth.

Is he in Kenya?

I would really be guessing. I’m not confortable making any assertions without facts.

As part of reconciliation, a new initiative called mass apology was started by a youth group and you supported it. Tell us about that

It is something that came under what we call Ndumunyarwanda.

In which case Rwandans look at their history and merge with the commitment to ourselves and our future that whoever did anything wrong needs a chance to contribute to a better future then so be it. It has done very well.

But critics say it is wrong to get the Hutu to apologise to the Tutsi as it amounts to victimising one group

You see it is not anything that is being forced. It is an idea that came up from the people themselves. It’s something voluntary. Nobody has been held responsible for being silent.

Isn’t it a bit odd that people who were not responsible in any way like your Prime Minister come to apologise

I think critics should take more time to analayse what they are talking about.

People need to take time to listen to what he’s saying. He was saying that “this should not have happened in my name”.

There are people who used his name and he gave many examples of what he knows when he was in school and in the work place. First of all he is doing it voluntarily. He’s saying that people should not do things in the name of a group.

Don’t you think it throws a blanket of guilt over one group?

In an open society there are two things that stand out, one is the right of the minority. But the majority also have a right. And it reflects the desire of the society. Critics could also have said that silence doesn’t help. You have to choose how to proceed. As far I have seen nobody has been hurt about it.

What’s your assessment of how long it will take before reconciliation matures?

I think there is a foundation. We are more or less standing in a very good position but we need to keep building institutions and developing the mindset. These kinds of situations take very long to heal and it takes long to stabilise. There are cases that have lived for close to a 100 years.

In your address to the governors, among the many things you said is that it is easy to measure economic development but difficult to measure democratic development. What would you say of Rwanda’s democratic development in the last 20 years?

By far we have made huge progress. Twenty years ago there was nothing to talk about and that is why the tragedy was there.

In learning lessons of our own history, I’m comfortable that progress has been made in all directions. We are not where we want to be or need to be. We still need to work very hard.

Tell us about Rwanda’s situation particulary in 2017. Will you retire as per the constitution?

First, I don’t think it is about one individual. I know I have become a subject of discussion but someone needs to deflect it to the actual situation. Elections mean the feelings and the choices of people.

Sometimes you may run the danger of questioning the choices of people because they make a choice and you say you should not have made that choice. This is why I have become uncomfortable answering this question because in any case I’m not satisfying anybody.

Will you leave when the time comes?

You are saying that as if the constitution falls from heaven. It’s made by people. The fact that the constitution is in place means that this is what the people put in place.

The question is how has this changed? It changed because the same people changed it and made it so. Whether I’m going or not should not preoccupy people. Time passes and we will come to know what will happen.

To those who insist on this question, you say wait and see?

Yes, let’s wait and see. What will happen will happen.

The other day, you said treason has consequences. Some people drew conclusions about what happened in South Africa to Patrick Karegeya (former Rwandan director of external intelligence who defected and was found murdered in a hotel recently)

Am I not supposed to say what I want to say? I said many things in a religious context. Somebody can take anything out of context.

By betraying a cause and a people, why should it not have consequences?

When you betray the government, you betray the people of Rwanda. The fact that these people live in exile has consequences. They are not at peace.

Many of them tend to die. People die but these same people who die, die from different causes. These Karegeyas and other belong to an organisation that has been killing people in Rwanda. There’s evidence. A mountain of evidence.

So it is not agents of the Rwanda government that track these people down and kill them?

Not that I know of. But I have evidence that they have been involved in activities that have killed Rwandans. That’s what I have proof for.